Re: How easy is it for men to challenge other men?
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 5:24 pmI think he's correct in that there is a significant age factor. 10 or 15 years ago I was just as opposed to these sorts of things as I am today, but as a teenager or young adult it seemed that the "feminazi" or racist jokes sort of thing were somewhat more acceptable. It was still a taboo, of course, but people were more likely to simply shrug it off. "Moving with the crowd" was more important as a young person than trying to take a principled stand. It didn't help that during that period of my life I was trapped out in "Red State" territory where racism and homophobia were practically de rigueur, and sexism just went without saying. I was the only liberal for a hundred miles in any direction. So that's an extreme example.
Nowadays, as an adult man in a circle of the same I think its much less contentious. At least amongst us, its the sort of thing where people might try to laugh it off the first time, but if someone in our group were to be carrying on with it, they would soon find themselves ostracized. Katz may be underestimating men, here. Adult men absolutely do stand up and reject this stuff. It does happen. As you get old you just give less of a shit and don't associate yourself with ignorant trashy people who think its funny to joke about giving women black eyes, or (insert homophobic/racist/whatever). I will say that if there is genuinely good humor behind thing stuff (take our "Woman...make me a sammich!" type stuff around here, for example) as opposed to actual sexism/racism/homophobia, then people can lighten this crap up a bit and take the edge off. Which is fine.
But to seriously start bitching about feminazis and niggers or whatever else? Its just extremely bad form. Its rude as hell, and offensive. Its not funny. Nobody likes having these sorts of shitty people around. So they don't. I can't speak for everyone, that's just the crowd I hang with. We're just not tolerant of that crap.
That said, something that absolutely does get bitched about is bitching. Women who think everything is sexism, or minorities who think everything is racism. It gets old, and it cheapens real issues. People absolutely hate that shit, and there is no faster way to vaporize enthusiasm for these topics than to have to listen to someone go on about it. The ambassadors for these causes do a lot of self harm.
Its offensive because it feels like persecution. Something Katz mentioned was that the reason people are dismissive of feminist issues is because men are colluding to maintain their dominant position...which is flatly horse shit. There is no great conspiracy, we have no secret meetings, we are in fact NOT sexist by default. Believe it or not. We aren't working together to keep women down. It was irritating that he'd go there, and then contradict himself by completely writing off the idea of battle between the sexes. Women are supposed to stick together, help each other, give each other a hand up. Right?
“There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women." -Madeleine Albright
If a man had said something like that...just imagine the shitstorm. That is a place where men are silent. We sit there quietly while women promote solidarity and give us every reason to suspect sexism and collusion. And lets not pretend that contention between the sexes isn't an issue. Lets no pretend that sexism isn't a two edge sword. True, one side is blunt like a butter knife, and the other side is more like a razor...but still. Lets not go the extreme of discounting it.
It was a good talk. Flawed and arrogant. But good stuff in there. Particularly the leadership angle. So, so true. A good find, Em.
Nowadays, as an adult man in a circle of the same I think its much less contentious. At least amongst us, its the sort of thing where people might try to laugh it off the first time, but if someone in our group were to be carrying on with it, they would soon find themselves ostracized. Katz may be underestimating men, here. Adult men absolutely do stand up and reject this stuff. It does happen. As you get old you just give less of a shit and don't associate yourself with ignorant trashy people who think its funny to joke about giving women black eyes, or (insert homophobic/racist/whatever). I will say that if there is genuinely good humor behind thing stuff (take our "Woman...make me a sammich!" type stuff around here, for example) as opposed to actual sexism/racism/homophobia, then people can lighten this crap up a bit and take the edge off. Which is fine.
But to seriously start bitching about feminazis and niggers or whatever else? Its just extremely bad form. Its rude as hell, and offensive. Its not funny. Nobody likes having these sorts of shitty people around. So they don't. I can't speak for everyone, that's just the crowd I hang with. We're just not tolerant of that crap.
That said, something that absolutely does get bitched about is bitching. Women who think everything is sexism, or minorities who think everything is racism. It gets old, and it cheapens real issues. People absolutely hate that shit, and there is no faster way to vaporize enthusiasm for these topics than to have to listen to someone go on about it. The ambassadors for these causes do a lot of self harm.
Its offensive because it feels like persecution. Something Katz mentioned was that the reason people are dismissive of feminist issues is because men are colluding to maintain their dominant position...which is flatly horse shit. There is no great conspiracy, we have no secret meetings, we are in fact NOT sexist by default. Believe it or not. We aren't working together to keep women down. It was irritating that he'd go there, and then contradict himself by completely writing off the idea of battle between the sexes. Women are supposed to stick together, help each other, give each other a hand up. Right?
“There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women." -Madeleine Albright
If a man had said something like that...just imagine the shitstorm. That is a place where men are silent. We sit there quietly while women promote solidarity and give us every reason to suspect sexism and collusion. And lets not pretend that contention between the sexes isn't an issue. Lets no pretend that sexism isn't a two edge sword. True, one side is blunt like a butter knife, and the other side is more like a razor...but still. Lets not go the extreme of discounting it.
It was a good talk. Flawed and arrogant. But good stuff in there. Particularly the leadership angle. So, so true. A good find, Em.