Egypt bloodshed: At least 235 killed

[spacemonkey]

I don't think either side knows what it wants, or has a plan. Hell we don't even know if we should keep sending them money or not,lol.

[eynon81]

[The Dharma Bum]

Hassan Al-Banna was actually the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. It is a group that is as equally influenced by sufism as it is by the salafism of members like Qutb.

Al Qaeda and the mujahideen doctrine sprang from the US aggression to toward the Soviets during their invasion of Afghanistan. We encouraged the development of that ideology as a doctrine to control and or influence fighters from a alien culture. However, we all know the results of that. I think it is safe to say they are a Saudi proxy force and we know where the buck stops there.

But I can say that one thread that unites all of these ideologies is that they seek to unite the Islamic world in an effort to end to western imperialism. I don't see how that really can be held against them as survival free of cultural domination is a biological imperative.

They certainly don't "hate us for our freedoms" as you may hear on your television. A more accurate description would be to say that we hate them being free and work to undermine democracy in those countries constantly so we can continue the exploitation of their resources.

I think Americans by and large don't understand that the majority of the unrest in the Middle East has nothing to do with religion. It's mostly about labor reform and food shortages that they are upset about. We bribe our satellites with food aid and when that runs short there is a lot of unrest because the people there depend on that aid. Their major industry is almost completely dominated by western interests who treat their indigenous workers like shit. A lot of times they import cheap labor from Asia instead of creating jobs for the people of the country.

We give foreign aid to our client states for the same reason we have welfare domestically. It's just enough to keep the masses from all out revolt. Our current global mode of production does nothing to provision or sustain large numbers of people, so without that kind of stop gap measure production would likely be halted, which could become a disaster rapidly considering how dependent humans have become to mass agricultural production and distribution.

[The Dharma Bum]

[exploited]

Here's the thing: a solid chunk of the population in every revolution just wants bread and shelter. They pick a side and stay with that side only so long as there is a utilitarian benefit. The vast majority of people affected by revolution have nothing to do with the revolution itself: they cannot afford to give a damn about anything beyond the necessities of life. This is true every place in the world, in all times.

Point being, you can't say the Islamists are not to blame. Sure they are. Just like the capitalists are to blame for the state and actions of Western society. They are a small group able to exercise power exponentially greater than what is warranted by their support. They manipulate the public by telling them one thing, then pursuing the other. They buy them off with programs designed to worsen the illnesses of their society while alleviating the symptoms.

The Muslim Brotherhood had every intention of using democracy to destroy democracy, just like George Bush invaded Iraq for peace, and Obama kills Syrians to protect them. I'm not happy to see Egyptian military cracking down violently, nor do I support continued military aid.

But the Revolution you guys seem eager to have succeed has only just begun, and the Muslim Brotherhood had every intention of weakening the elements that Egypt so desperately needs: rational legal systems, internal self-sufficiency, insane liberals, social outcasts, powerful women, religious minorities. These are the people who will carry the Revolution, and there is no way they would survive their infancy if the Brotherhood succeeded.

A democracy dedicated to suppressing the elements listed above is infinitely more dangerous and destructive than a military junta suppressing the same things. In the long run, the destruction of the Muslim Brotherhood, if successful, will be a positive development.

[The Dharma Bum]

[exploited]

That's a nice interview, and Chomsky is awesome, but I don't see how it is relevant to what I said.

[The Dharma Bum]

You keep insisting that "Islamism" or groups like the MB or AQ is the impetus for Middle East unrest. The true cause, elaborated in the article, is a labor movement and class unrest because of unfair conditions such as those Emerald pointed out that exist in the non-tourist areas of Egypt that most Westerners never see.

The fact is we are not over there trying to install democracies. On the contrary we are doing everything we can to smash democracy and end the freedom of people in the Middle East by installing and supporting murderous dictatorships that will support our interests over their own people's. The article states this plainly enough.

If the people of the Middle East had democratic governments we would be out on our ass, which the article also states very plainly. The truth is the Middle East has a long history of democracy but since WWII we have been undermining and overthrowing elected governments there.

There needs to be true democracy in the US before we start trying to export to other countries.

[exploited]

[The Dharma Bum]