Freedom of association

[Gremlin]

The reality is that there isnt a governor to a monopoly on force.

[exploited]

Discrimination causes harm, punishing it makes as much or more sense than punishing fraud or any other economic harm. The only way your opinion makes sense is if you narrow harm to mean physical damage... which is retarded.

[J.K. Gregg]

A lot of things cause harm, Ex. A boycott causes harm. A divorce causes harm. Perfectly healthy market competition causes harm. You cannot micromanage a multi-trillion dollar economy, because that too causes totally unnecessary harm.

[The Dharma Bum]

[exploited]

Okay, lets weigh the harm.

The owner is forced to do his job and make money. His feelings get hurt. Or he is not forced to do anything, but instead pays a fine. So the harm here is either hurt feelings or a minor economic loss.

On the other hand, you have a person who faces massive institutional discrimination, has been denied equal treatment under the law, and belongs to a group that regularly faces systematic physical, economic and moral abuse. This person is denied service for reasons he literally cannot change. At the very least you have hurt feelings - which stems from actually being treated poorly instead of somehow "collaterally participating" in something you disagree with, like how the cutlery company endorses gay marriage because the gays use forks.

You also have economic harm - perhaps going elsewhere costs more, or perhaps there is no local alternative. As blacks and other ethnic minorities already pay more for insurance, loans, mortgages, etc., even if equally qualified, this is yet another economic harm being done to them.

There is also the question of numbers. A store that discriminates could deny service to hundreds of people. Whereas forcing that store not to discriminate harms only a select few - the owners.

Since we are not talking about "ruining peoples livelihood" or killing them for not serving homos, I'll disregard that comment and put it down to anti-government hysteria.

The argument that remains intact is the trojan horse argument. This is the idea that good policies shouldn't be implemented by bad government, because they might be abused. Not said but clearly implied is that if a business person is forced to do something here, he may also be forced to do something there. As anti-discrimination laws have been around for 40 years, with no ill-effect, I see no reason to take this argument seriously. I have yet to see the government crack down on business discretion - you can still be denied service for all sorts of awful reasons, but race, sexuality and gender are not some of them.

Finally, we have "big picture" stuff to consider. The first is how blacks are going to react when they find out that segregation is legal again. You will see an immediate radicalization of racial politics, not something I particularly want to see again. There is also the idea of what we want our society to look like - as many others have noted, if liberty means being able to harm others due to bigotry, they want no part of liberty. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I will viciously oppose any political party that advocates these changes.

In all likelihood, I would be perfectly willing to use real force to threaten, intimidate and scare anyone who adopted these discriminatory policies. So now instead of having those views tolerated, they will be crushed mercilessly by people who, like myself, care for actual freedom instead of pretend freedom. Also keep in mind that this would allow the government even more leeway in pursuing bad policy - as I am stomping a bigots face in behind his cake shop, no doubt they will be proceeding with whatever agenda they want.

You guys are the ones proposing the changes. Anti-discrimination laws are the standard for Western countries the world over. Only in America are they viewed as instruments of oppression, and there is no question that America would be harmed even more than most other countries that repealed these laws.

Lastly, Dharma, you make me sick. Call yourself a socialist? You're a raging sellout. Have fun with your currency speculation, capitalist pig-dog.

[exploited]

[Homer]

[The Dharma Bum]

[exploited]

Yeah, I wonder if Nelson Mandela would have supported your concept of human liberation. I'm guessing not.

[J.K. Gregg]