Atheist Megachurches

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Morality is far too complex to be pigeon-holed into a simplistic set of "principles." Only simpleminded fools look outwards for answers of that nature. Human beings may be motivated by self-preservation, but that motivation has spawned as many good things as it has bad. Arguing that we would fall into barbarism simply because of something so simple as wanting to stay alive is incredibly stupid, as that will exists irrespective of whether we adhere to rules or not.

[Gnostic]

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It isn't that Plato is an idiot - he was engaged in philosophy thousands of years ago, and does not benefit from our understanding of neurology, biology, psychology or evolution. Those who parrot his arguments irrespective of those developments are the idiots here.

Your assertion that people need a moral code to prevent violent behaviour is incorrect. Violence is a product of necessity - it is no coincidence that violence and crime is so heavily correlated with access to resources. The average human being, provided with the necessities of life, has no reason to be violent, and isn't. The remaining offenders usually suffer from a genetic disposition towards violence, exasperated by exposure to it at young ages. This is why the vast majority of all crime is committed by an incredibly small percentage of the population.

Laws, by the way, are not moral systems. Morality deals with beliefs governing behaviour - laws deal with enforcing behaviour with force, not persuasion. You are not required to think killing people is wrong, or stealing is bad. You are simply required not to do it.

In other words, people are more than capable of regulating themselves without believing in any particular code. Sheer self-interest is enough.

[Gnostic]

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Repeating yourself doesn't make you right.

That we have all agreed to certain laws against violence supports my assertions, not yours.

[Gnostic]

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A more recent article about the long-term scientific consensus regarding violence.

http://m.phys.org/news/2012-02-science- ... rally.html

Biological research increasingly debunks the view of humanity as competitive, aggressive and brutish, a leading specialist in primate behavior told a major science conference Monday.

"Humans have a lot of pro-social tendencies," Frans de Waal, a biologist at Emory University in Atlanta, told the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

New research on higher animals from primates and elephants to mice shows there is a biological basis for behavior such as cooperation, said de Waal, author of "The Age of Empathy: Nature's Lessons for a Kinder Society."

Until just 12 years ago, the common view among scientists was that humans were "nasty" at the core but had developed a veneer of morality -- albeit a thin one, de Waal told scientists and journalists from some 50 countries.

But human children -- and most higher animals -- are "moral" in a scientific sense, because they need to cooperate with each other to reproduce and pass on their genes, he said.

Research has disproved the view, dominant since the 19th century, typical of biologist Thomas Henry Huxley's argument that morality is absent in nature and something created by humans, said de Waal.

And common assumptions that the harsh view was promoted by Charles Darwin, the so-called father of evolution, are also wrong, he said.

"Darwin was much smarter than most of his followers," said de Waal, quoting from Darwin's "The Descent of Man" that animals that developed "well-marked social instincts would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience."

De Waal showed the audience videos from laboratories revealing the dramatic emotional distress of a monkey denied a treat that another monkey received; and of a rat giving up chocolate in order to help another rat escape from a trap.

Such research shows that animals naturally have pro-social tendencies for "reciprocity, fairness, empathy and consolation," said de Waal, a Dutch biologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia.

"Human morality is unthinkable without empathy."

Asked if wide public acceptance of empathy as natural would change the intense competition on which capitalist economic and political systems are based, de Waal quipped, "I'm just a monkey watcher."

But he told reporters that research also shows animals bestow their empathy on animals they are familiar with in their "in-group" -- and that natural tendency is a challenge in a globalized human world.

"Morality" developed in humans in small communities, he said, adding: "It's a challenge... it's experimental for the human species to apply a system intended for (in-groups) to the whole world."

[Gnostic]

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I get it, you just want to say things and not support them. All the power to you. But maybe leave the actual debate for people capable of doing it right.