most serene republic of venice rises

[The Dharma Bum]

[John Galt]

thats not correct in the case of venice. venice expanded during the feudalism period (9th to 15th centuries). the ottomons stopped them(15th century), not the loss of feudalism. genoa peaked at the beginning of the renaissance, again, they rose to power during feudal times.

[The Dharma Bum]

Well, there are individual differences in the history of each city state, but in general it was the struggle for independence from the german empire that created the italian city states and on a macroeconomic level it was the loss of the control of production by the feudal lords in the entirety of europe and the acquisition of economic power by the bourgeois class in the vacuum that led to the rise of capitalism and the westphalian nation state.

Plague in the 13th century actually sped up this process.

[John Galt]

which ones launched "vast commercial empires" that met your criteria of happening after feudalism? the HRE extended at one point as far south as rome, but most of italy never swore fealty to the emperor, mainly just the northern part (and never venice). genoa and venice were maritime republics capable of being "vast commercial empires" but other city states like siena -- which did break feudal bonds like you said -- were not vast commercial empires. so i'm agreeing with partof what yousaid -- there were a lot of independent city states exerting power -- but in the case of creating vast commercial empires those rose to prominence during feudal times, not after.

venice's lagoon made it possible to defend easily and they were just busy doing their trading thing so nobody really bothered them. it wasn't until they had to end up securing lands in order to continue the trading...and then the ottomans burst on the scene, that they saw decline

[The Comrade]

[The Comrade]

[The Dharma Bum]

[John Galt]

[The Dharma Bum]

[John Galt]