Hillary once again confirms she is a moron...

[Philly]

[Saz]

[Saz]

[ToddStarnes]

Fair point. I dont rely on anecdotal data, no. I look at the fruits of their societies and evaluate the data available on commonly held beliefs, especially in the Arab world. Both are pretty horrific. can you guide me to a Muslim nation with a solid human rights record maybe?

Check some of the polls on what arabs believe. Its pretty f**k up.

[Saz]

[Philly]

[exploited]

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/poli ... -04new-06/



Note that foreign born American Muslims responded positively to the question at increasing rates. 26% in 2007, 38% in 2011 and 49% in 2017. They are actually more accepting of homosexuality than white evangelicals and black protestants.

This directly refutes the notion that foreign born Muslims are incapable of changing their views on social matters opposed by their religion. In fact, it appears they are able to change their views at approximately the same rate as the rest of society.

Younger Muslims are more likely than older Muslims to respond positively. Having less than a college education doesn't substantially alter things - 48% of Muslims in that category approve. Most importantly though - a higher rate of native-born Muslims believe homosexuality should be accepted by society. 57% of native-born Muslims believe this.

Overall, this provides pretty clear evidence that American Muslims, both native and foreign born, have significantly changed their views about this particular topic. It also hints at the possibility that successive generations are more liberal than the previous.

[Philly]

Interesting numbers. One thing I think we tend to see a lot when this discussion comes up is some report on how illiberal and intolerant of gay rights, women's right etc. the vast majority of the public are in these Middle Eastern countries. The assumption is that if they come to the US, where people who share their background are a tiny, tiny minority of the population, that they will nonetheless be adamant about bringing the popular social values of their native country to us and/or even trying to push it on the rest of us. This is a bit of an odd take, to observe that life in an illiberal, more religiously authoritarian society tends to make people have illiberal social views, but then to also assume that being immersed in a secular liberal democracy will only ever lead to them doubling down on said views.

[Saz]

Because most American Muslims don’t come from deeply theocratic societies like the ones now in the Middle East. There is a reason I say Middle East and not Muslim. No one is saying this applies to Indonesia or India or Malaysia, these are not deeply theocratic societies even though they are Muslim. Rather, it just so happens that the most theocratic societies happen to be the Muslim societies centered in the Middle East. America also does not take many Muslims or have many Muslims in the first place, and the ones who are here have certainly gone through a gauntlet of vetting if they came in the last generation. This is apples and oranges compared with that Germany did, particularly given the numbers that come from a war torn region. I know they deserve our help but the truth is like refugees from nazis germany a lot of these people have done horrific and criminal things in the war and without an organized process we will have no way of segregating these people from those in need of shelter and protection from them.

But hey, if I really have to explain the difference to you between your average American Muslim and your average guy from Syria, you obviously have never met anyone who is either. You want and keep trying to lump them all together because they are Muslim, when they have literally nothing else in common with the sort of backwards people or viewpoints predominantly held in the Middle East. These societies cannot change because they they are based on these absurd religious pillars, that does not mean every country that shares the same religion is the same.

Kind really have no idea how racist, ignorant and bigoted they can be when they really get down to it. It’s clear despite all your words you see someone and think MUSLIM and that’s the extent of it, into the box. To compare American Muslims with the man on the street in Cairo and think that proves something ... downright insulting and shows you have no f**k clue what we mean when we speak about values.

[Philly]

Was that directed at me? All I really did in that last post as a thought experiment on the assumption that changing one's surroundings would not change their attitudes. But I should note that even if you think there is no merit in that and are trying to impress upon me that Syrian refugees are likely going to oppose LGBT Rights, Women's Rights, even certain basic liberties associated with a secular society, I've already said that this being the case would not be a compelling reason to deny asylum in my book.