Liberals need to redefine their position on taxes

[Hyperion]

One of the main complaints I have about taxation in developed nations is the obfuscation. I have no problem with a progressive income tax, but the established amendments of such policy with deductions, exemptions, and credits makes the entire system a mess. Furthermore, too many people are just oblivious to their actual tax contributions when factoring in local, state, and federal demands. I'll use an average Texas citizen as an example. I'll also ignore payments to the government for tangible products like driver's licenses.

Let's say Jane makes $50,000 a year. She has to contribute about 8% of that to payroll taxes. Now, one could argue that she eventually receives benefits from this levy when she retires and qualifies for Social Security/Medicare, but the fact remains she has lost 8% of her income for that year. Furthermore, she will pay about 13% of her gross salary towards the federal income tax. Are we done?

Nope. She will lose about 8% of her salary to the sales tax - assuming that she's only saving about 10% of her monthly paycheck. If she owns a house, about 2% of the value of her house also must be paid. Let's say she lives in a modest $175,000 estate. That translates to about $3,000 on top of her mortgage and insurance payments.

Altogether, she's paying about 38% of her income towards taxes. This is an average citizen, not an outstandingly wealthy individual. I think that's just atrocious. I would be satisfied with paying about half of that amount, but she's essentially forgone half of her income if you consider hidden taxes (like petroleum taxes).

This thread is devoted mostly to American citizens. I feel that culturally we are more intolerant of taxes and public programs. Do you think the actual contributions to taxes should be made more public to stir unrest?

Yes, taxes are necessary, and the GOP really doesn't care about cutting taxes if you make less than a few hundred thousand dollars, but the Democrats are always silent on issues of taxation beyond limited involvement (Obama/SS tax increase). In particular there's a noticeable lack of concern for the tax burden middle-class people face. Regular citizens are giving up nearly half of their paychecks in return for corporatism, militarism, police brutality... If you want to champion the regular working man (or woman), you need to defend drastically reducing the size and scope of government, even if you believe it does have a purpose in social welfare. I can't provide hard figures as it's a fluid point of discussion, but I don't think someone making $50,000 a year should be contributing more than $10,000 towards taxes. Now imagine the uproar and discontent if you were required to pay one tax (20%) all at once.

[Hyperion]

Most of these problems should first be addressed at the state and local level. The police state starts next door - namely prisons and police officers. During the 2008-2009 recession I researched different career fields and was disgusted to find that the only profession to see increased employment across the board was law enforcement. I am not a cop hater but I am disgusted with the mindset that we need to capture drug users/dealers, prostitutes, small-time criminals, and traffic violators. When it becomes economically advantageous to hire a unionized employer for $60,000 a year because he can bring in over $100,000 in traffic tickets, something is wrong.

Police agencies should pretty much be cut in half, if you ask me. But I also think police agencies should focus less on traffic stops and busting kids for dope.

Education and health budgets are also out of control with no recourse. In regards to education I think more financial responsibility should be put on parents. I'm fine with paying for some public education, but parents should contribute an additional amount so that they have some "skin" in the game. An education budget should not be passed off entirely to the community at large but impact parents more than those who are childless.

I also think the public sector should try to invest in unique enterprises to make its own money like it does with the Hoover Dam.

[The Dude]

One of the biggest problems we have is the misinformation about payroll taxes. People actually believe payroll taxes actually matter to funding their own retirement when in reality all taxes are the same and all gov't spending is the same. Payroll taxes are highly regressive and people are led to believe they matter and that is why people are willing to fund it despite lower incomes.

Not to mention, the employer portion is shifted onto the employee in the form of lower wages for almost all workers.

The payroll tax should be completely done away with and income tax rates should be changed to reflect this as well as shifting the burden to higher income earners.

[jurupa]

[Precocity]

[The Dude]

[Precocity]

Why does the employer have to raise wages?

[The Dude]

[Spider]

I'm still not seeing why the employer can't simply take advantage of the unemployment rate and pocket the cash. Mostly the worker is going to be counting his lucky stars he even has a job, much less beg for a raise. Or demand one.

[The Dude]

By that theory, why don't all employers lower everyone's wages right now?

There is still a supply and demand of labor going on...